tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post6495033918769773743..comments2024-03-08T07:31:03.679-08:00Comments on Templestream: Kaepernick's Confusion: LGBT and Islamo-Leftist Values Aren't Exactly HarmoniousRick Wardenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-39306277363391717742017-11-08T05:28:32.890-08:002017-11-08T05:28:32.890-08:00- A person made in the image of God is created bas...- A person made in the image of God is created based on God's value. In this sense the person is based on God and the design was dependent upon God.<br /><br />>>Hence their value is extrinsic.<br /><br />- On the other hand, a person's unique personality and design is something that cannot be arbitrarily taken away and is intrinsic. <br /><br />>>I agree, but their value is still extras you said above - thank you for making my point. Your quoted text does nothing to support your initial claim.<br /><br />Well, it looks like further down in your comment grouping you changed your mind and you agreed with me that human value can be both intrinsic and extrinsic:<br /><br />In a sense, in the Christian worldview, a person's value is both intrinsic and extrinsic.<br />>>I agree that something can have both extrinsic and intrinsic value.<br /><br />God is the external standard of human value, but God is not that value. <br /><br /><br />Rick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-62601210652144517942017-11-07T10:07:20.317-08:002017-11-07T10:07:20.317-08:00A person made in the image of God is created based...<b>A person made in the image of God is created based on God's value. In this sense the person is based on God and the design was dependent upon God.</b><br />Hence their value is extrinsic.<br /><br /><b>On the other hand, a person's unique personality and design is something that cannot be arbitrarily taken away and is intrinsic. </b><br />I agree, but their value is still extras you said above - thank you for making my point. Your quoted text does nothing to support your initial claim.<br /><br /><b>I'm not sure where a secular atheist would find objective human value outside of utilitarian value, instrumental value, or hedonistic abilities. Can you explain?</b><br />How about humans having <i>intrinsic</i> value (perhaps because we're agents/persons)? It's similar to the claim you intiially made.<br />We could also look to pragmatism, or even emotional value.<br /><br /><b>Secular atheists decry "speciesism" when humans claim that they are more valuable than a slug or a whale. And I understand their point.</b><br />I don't. I do accept that there's likely to be at least some species bias simply because we're the only species that we really interact with. However, because of our abilities to interact, memory, personality, and so on, I feel there is more individual diversity in humans than slugs, and that that is worthwhile. I also think that our ability to interact, our status as agents/persons is worth something.<br /><br /><b>And other environmentalists claim that inanimate mother earth has more value than humans.</b><br />Who are these people?<br /><br /><b>Do you agree?</b><br />No. As above, I don't agree, though there's likely to be points of agreement to be found, just as both you and I feel that a human has more worth than a slug (I assume you agree).<br /><br /><b>In a sense, in the Christian worldview, a person's value is both intrinsic and extrinsic.</b><br />I agree that something can have both extrinsic and intrinsic value.<br /><br /><b>The intrinsic value of a human is based on being created in the image of the one true valuable God.</b><br />That is extrinsic value Rick. Intrinsic value would be something that doesn't depend on anything outside. Being created in the image of God is only of value because God is (presumably, in your view) of value.<br /><br /><b>The extrinsic value is based on God's love for mankind.</b><br />I agree - that would be extrinsic value.<br /><br /><b>For the atheist, the value of man's design does not have any reference point of value, and so there is no objective basis to claim intrinsic human value.</b><br />Please don't purport to tell atheists what they think - you're likely to be mistaken (as you are here).<br /><br /><b>For the Christian, the reference point of value is God.</b><br />And God has intrinsic value on your view. I woul agree with this.<br /><br /><b>This does not mean necessarily that all human value is extrinsic,</b><br />I agree. Even if God existed, we could have some intrinsic value as persons/agents without reference to God (and some/all of God's worth could be the same intrinsic value - personhood and/or agency).<br />However, on the view you've put forward so far, this isn't the case. On the view you're currently proposing, humans have no intrinsic value (using the word "intrinsic" in it's common meaning).<br /><br /><b>but simply that a reference point or standard of some kind is logically necessary when discussing any value. </b><br />This is not true. We can assess things relative to one another without a standard. Prior to there being a standard measure of distance, for example, huamsn were still able to compare distances and say, objectively, that travelling from X to Y was longer than travelling from X to Z. Your claims of logical necessity are false.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-72424645127316253442017-11-07T04:16:49.854-08:002017-11-07T04:16:49.854-08:00In a sense, in the Christian worldview, a person&#...In a sense, in the Christian worldview, a person's value is both intrinsic and extrinsic. The intrinsic value of a human is based on being created in the image of the one true valuable God. The extrinsic value is based on God's love for mankind. For the atheist, the value of man's design does not have any reference point of value, and so there is no objective basis to claim intrinsic human value. For the Christian, the reference point of value is God. This does not mean necessarily that all human value is extrinsic, but simply that a reference point or standard of some kind is logically necessary when discussing any value. <br />Rick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-27227586144282445782017-11-07T04:05:28.920-08:002017-11-07T04:05:28.920-08:00"If it is based or dependant upon something, ..."If it is based or dependant upon something, it isn't intrinsic."<br /><br />- I don't agree. A person made in the image of God is created based on God's value. In this sense the person is based on God and the design was dependent upon God. On the other hand, a person's unique personality and design is something that cannot be arbitrarily taken away and is intrinsic. <br /><br />This website offers this point as a basis for bioethics:<br /><br /> <br />"...a person has value because that person is made in God’s image. This is the strongest case so long as a person believes in the Christian God and that He created humans in His image. If one has those two beliefs as a premise, then it logically follows that humans – no matter their stage of development or ability to actualize all capacities – have intrinsic value."<br /><br />https://virtusetvita.wordpress.com/tag/intrinsic-value/<br /><br />"A secular atheist may likely view all human value as based on utilitarian value, instrumental value, or hedonistic abilities (whether a person will feel enough happiness).<br />Or upon their intrinsic value as a person."<br /><br />I'm not sure where a secular atheist would find objective human value outside of utilitarian value, instrumental value, or hedonistic abilities. Can you explain?<br /><br />Secular atheists decry "speciesism" when humans claim that they are more valuable than a slug or a whale. And I understand their point. And other environmentalists claim that inanimate mother earth has more value than humans. Do you agree? Rick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-17557876107315881222017-11-02T15:20:03.739-07:002017-11-02T15:20:03.739-07:00I think this is a good question. I agree with the ...<b>I think this is a good question. I agree with the explanation that human intrinsic value is based on God-given value. </b><br />If it is based or dependant upon something, it isn't intrinsic. <br /><br /><b>A secular atheist may likely view all human value as based on utilitarian value, instrumental value, or hedonistic abilities (whether a person will feel enough happiness).</b><br />Or upon their intrinsic value as a person.<br /><br /><b> But that is not a Christian or biblical approach to human value. </b><br />I agree - the Christian approach (or at least the one you seem to be proposing above) redefines "intrinsic" to mean "extrinsic".<br /><br />If people have intrinsic value, then regardless of anything else (like being made in the image of God), that value is an essential part of being a person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-21001376931122027232017-11-02T14:23:58.109-07:002017-11-02T14:23:58.109-07:00I think this is a good question. I agree with the ...I think this is a good question. I agree with the explanation that human intrinsic value is based on God-given value. <br /><br />"According to the Bible intrinsic value is given to all humans because we are all made in the image of God. On the other hand, instrumental value is judged by what we can or cannot do."<br /><br />http://biblicalworldviewacademy.org/defending-the-life-of-the-unborn-part-13/<br /><br />A secular atheist may likely view all human value as based on utilitarian value, instrumental value, or hedonistic abilities (whether a person will feel enough happiness). But that is not a Christian or biblical approach to human value. <br />Rick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-42126557080144699182017-10-31T16:33:19.836-07:002017-10-31T16:33:19.836-07:00If we understand that we have God-given value, we ...<b> If we understand that we have God-given value, we will not be needy of affirmation from others and seek a Black Panther "right" to be affirmed and loved by others</b><br />Isnt it better to teach children that they have intrinsic value?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com