tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post1927855603861585156..comments2024-03-08T07:31:03.679-08:00Comments on Templestream: ARGUMENT AGAINST CHRISTIAN HEDONISM AS IDOLATRYRick Wardenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-32079223340255143692019-07-21T12:09:11.832-07:002019-07-21T12:09:11.832-07:00Richard Warden,
I SO appreciated your words. The ...Richard Warden, <br />I SO appreciated your words. The first time I ever heard of Christian Hedonism I had to research what hedonism was, which in my opinion was self serving happiness. I immediately thought that CH was not a right or good thing. Then I listened to some of John Pipers sermons & read his writings. I think listening to him created a wrong sense of guilt because I was not able to have this feeling of joy in my life (possibly due to some depression and selfishness). I do believe JP does have some good teachings, but it is the enemy of our souls that condemns, and I felt condemned by not having/finding this “joy” or Christian Hedonism. <br />Again, thank you so much for this article. It has truly helped me to see that my happiness is so much less important than the desire to seek and please my Heavenly Father. My joy shall be the effect of belief, faith, trust and obedience to Him.CherylAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302933238289360406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-26465357997544600742018-01-27T07:23:24.468-08:002018-01-27T07:23:24.468-08:00Hi again, Jesse. I haven't heard a response ba...Hi again, Jesse. I haven't heard a response back from you and I wrote a more in-depth reply as a new blog post at the following link:<br /><br />http://templestream.blogspot.com/2018/01/john-pipers-false-doctrine-of.htmlRick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-23358772905356521862018-01-17T06:08:43.088-08:002018-01-17T06:08:43.088-08:00Hi Jesse,
It seems as though you are sincerely se...Hi Jesse,<br /><br />It seems as though you are sincerely seeking the truth on this matter, and I appreciate that you are willing to discuss and debate specific ideas.<br /><br />As far as the first premise in the idolatry argument, you claim that it is "misleading" and therefore false:<br /><br />"So to state that “’joy in God’ is not God” is misleading and therefore constitutes a false premise" -with the specific claim:<br /><br />"God cannot exist apart from His will, and “joy in God” is part of his will."<br /><br />Jesse, there are many core aspects of God's manifold nature and will that together make up the person of God. <br /><br />Nowhere in scripture are we advised to seek one aspect of God with all of our being. You have not provided any valid scriptural basis to embrace this attitude and neither has John Piper. You offer one Bible verse to support your argument:<br /><br />"For whatever we get happiness from that becomes an object of love. It is similar to Jesus’ statement, “for where your treasure is there is your heart also” (Mat 6:21)."<br /><br />Please read this over a few times and let it sink in: <br /><br />Because God for us is the source of our greatest sense of happiness, it does not logically follow that our main goal should be to seek our personal happiness in God. <br /><br />Why is my previous statement known to be true? Here are a few points backed up by scripture: <br /><br />1) God does not self-identify as the eros-centered "Fountain of Happiness" or the "Happy God" -but he self-identifies as others-centered agape Love: <br /><br />"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8)<br /><br />2) God commands us to love and worship all of Him with all of ourselves:<br /><br />"He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10:27) To worship with OUR mind and thoughts means that we highly esteem GOD'S wisdom as well as the joy of God. It seriously misrepresents scripture to claim that all of our focus on worship should be our feelings. <br /><br />3) When we become born-again Christians we are no longer servants or slaves to any of our passions, even a primal desire for happiness. Read various translation of Colossians 2:10 and this might become more clear to you:<br /><br />"and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority." (NIV)<br /><br />"So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority." (NLT)<br /><br />"and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." (ESV)<br /><br />As opposed to urging a hunger for more joy, Paul urged a sense of contentment:<br /><br />"But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment." (1 Timothy 6:6 NASB)<br /><br />The joy that Paul commends was written in a context of imprisonment with the idea that we should retain a positive attitude and choose to "rejoice in the Lord always" (under all circumstances) rather than become discouraged. (Philippians 4:4)<br /><br />You write, "Scripture clearly agrees with this because it is full of appeals to our desire for happiness."<br /><br />There are also appeals to "Be holy as I am holy"(1 Peter 1:16)<br /><br />Scripture also admonishes to grow in grace and knowledge (2 Peter 3:18) and to present ourselves as "approved" in handling the word of God:<br /><br />"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."(2 Timothy 2:15 ESV)<br /><br />In summary, you have not proven that premise one is false. And I can offer more relevant scripture to show that it is true.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Rick Wardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689451026838986088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1645439856635422478.post-46666851788863108032018-01-14T17:21:33.487-08:002018-01-14T17:21:33.487-08:00COMPARATIVE THOUGHTS BETWEEN RICK WARDEN AND JOHN ...COMPARATIVE THOUGHTS BETWEEN RICK WARDEN AND JOHN PIPER<br /><br />I appreciate the heart of this article by Rick Warden. It aims to counter a perceived error and protect those who might otherwise fall into it. Having grown up as traditional (non Christian Hedonist) Christian prior to learning and appreciating CH I understand where Warden is coming from since I thought the same way. But I have since come to appreciate CH so I believe I can offer some thoughts on it. <br /><br />ABOUT THE ARGUMENT<br /><br />First of all I’d like to comment on the 3-point syllogism offered against Christian Hedonism at the outset. Basically I find that the first premise ("joy in God" is not God) is actually a false premise. God cannot exist apart from His will, and “joy in God” is part of his will. So to state that “’joy in God’ is not God” is misleading and therefore constitutes a false premise, making the argument (though logically valid) questionable.<br /><br />ON HAPPINESS<br /><br />Moving on to the heart of the discussion. What I see as the biggest issue differentiating Warden’s point of view and Piper’s is in the nature of happiness. Warden clearly believe that happiness is to be seen as “an effect”, a benefit, a by-product, merely as an emotion, as in “to feel a feeling”.<br /><br />Viewed as an end product like that, it makes sense that Warden would see pursuing happiness as utilitarian, as using God as means to an end, and ultimately result in idolatry, hence leading to his view that CH is a heresy. So I am finding no fault with his conclusion, however in my opinion, his is an incomplete view of happiness when it is seen only as an emotion to be felt.<br /><br />Piper, however, sees happiness as more than just an end product or resulting feelings. To him it’s an emotion WITH A FUNCTION. That’s why Piper defends that they are not making a god out of pleasure but rather “we all make a god out of what we take most pleasure in”. God designed humans with a need for “happiness”, which is a desire for fulfillment, or satisfaction, or pleasure. We are not complete self-satisfying beings, only God is.<br /><br />We are meant to have an object of happiness or a source of joy. It used to be God until Adam and Eve fell and mankind since becoming “like God” made all other things their source of happiness rather than God. That function to pursue happiness is still there and it is the thing that produces sin in us because we seek for it apart from God.<br /><br />Christian Hedonism comes in and corrects that. It says that scriptures indicate that humans seek happiness by nature, and where we seek happiness from is an INDICATOR of what we love or treasure or value or worship or, in other words, what we make a god out of. For whatever we get happiness from that becomes an object of love. It is similar to Jesus’ statement, “for where your treasure is there is your heart also” (Mat 6:21). So if you pursue happiness in money then you have treasured money and you have made money your god.<br /><br />In his incomplete view of happiness, Warden sees men’s pursuit of happiness as only a “tendency” of humans, but Piper sees it as a function of humans, as God’s design in human beings. Piper does not see men as autonomous or neutral, he believes man always acts according to his nature to seek happiness.<br /><br />Scripture clearly agrees with this because it is full of appeals to our desire for happiness. God keeps giving promises of rewards, of crowns, of joy, of pleasure, etcetera. God created us to be happiness seekers, it therefore makes sense that he appeals to that function and He promises to be the ultimate fulfillment of it as it was meant to be before the fall. <br /><br />Christian hedonism then summarizes into humans, by seeking happiness in God, fulfill their God given function in doing so. Secondly, man rightly makes God as his God when he focuses that pursuit towards Him. It is the pursuit or the seeking of happiness in God that makes God a God to someone. So saving faith is not just the belief of a truth (mental assent) but the seeing of happiness in the truth and pursuing it (emotional trust).Jesse Moralesnoreply@blogger.com